Not An Audiophile – The Podcast featuring podcast episodes with Cody Hiebert, designer and manufacturer of Harbottle Audio high-end and luxury subwoofers. Subwoofers made with an unwavering attitude to quality of manufacture and sound. Sold direct, custom made and carbon fibre options, by an engineer “nerd and geek” who loves the science of audio.
Podcast transcripts below – Episode 020
TRANSCRIPT
S2 EP020 Subwoofers. Inside the “no compromise” design, attitude and engineering of Harbottle Audio
The hearing capability really matters. And ironically enough, women are excellent at hearing
Cody Hiebert: The hearing capability really matters. And ironically enough, women are excellent at hearing. Like my wife can hear. Literally like our, our audio system in our house is fully active, so we’ve got no passive crossovers. Everything is digital dsp. I, built everything from the ground up. You know, this is, it’s a pretty skookum system. Even though it’s fairly small, there’s a lot of control over it. And she can hear 0.1 of a millisecond delay. Really. difference.
Andrew Hutchison: She can also hear that. She can also hear all those comments you make under your breath in the other room. they’ve got like radar ears. They sort of move around. And then of course they’re super like bionic woman ears. But anyway, that’s another story.
This episode of not an Audiophile is sponsored by Stereonet. com
And welcome back to not an Audiophile, the podcast, episode 20, season two. I’m Andrew Hutchison and today we’re speaking to Cody Hiebert from, Canada, a subwoofer manufacturer, of exceptional quality, or a manufacturer of subwoofers of exceptional quality. Or perhaps both. This episode of not an Audiophile is sponsored by Stereonet. Are you looking for your tribe? Visit stereonet.com today to join one of the world’s largest online communities for hi fi home cinema headphones and much more. Read the latest news and product reviews or check out the classifiers for the largest range of gear on sale. Membership is absolutely free, so visit stereonet.com and join up today.
Cody Hiebert is the CEO of Harbottle Audio
Today, non audiophile, we have Cody Hiebert from, from Alberta. Clearly you’ve, you’ve, you’ve had jobs other than the one you currently have, which is running, designing, manufacturing, whatever, and you’ll tell us about what role you have at Harbottle. But I believe that you started the business. Is that, is that the gist of it?
Cody Hiebert: I did. I am the CEO. And, did you want to, did you ask about my previous jobs?
Andrew Hutchison: they were in the audio industry, I’m guessing.
Cody Hiebert: Or not.
Andrew Hutchison: Is that right? Okay, then, then do tell, do tell.
Cody Hiebert: I, I’m a tradesman. I started work at a very, very young age. almost illegal to work.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: And, coming from very blue collar roots. And I, I got into the piping trades. So.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: Got, I think I was like three journeyman tickets.
Andrew Hutchison: And this is, Is this what we would call plumbing? As in you?
Cody Hiebert: Yeah, plumbing, pipe fitting, gas fitting.
Andrew Hutchison: Oh, and gas fitting as well. Yeah. Yep. Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And H vac?
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah. Okay. All right.
Cody Hiebert: Air conditioning, the refrigerant style? Yeah, yeah, the refrigerant stuff.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah. Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And in that process I, started up my own company and I kind of started things off from more of like a company building aspect. And I found that I really liked building companies. I thought, hey, this is kind of cool. This is fun.
Andrew Hutchison: It is.
Cody Hiebert: And I started advising small companies.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And the. I, I got hooked up with, I diverged from the, the plumbing trays or the pipe trades into into welding and fabrication.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And so I was actually fabricating with a crew. we were factoring, fabricating luxury, yachts in British Columbia.
Andrew Hutchison: Friday. Oh yeah. Sounds.
Cody Hiebert: It’s a, it’s a wild story. And one of the guys on the crew, his brother owned a fledgling audio company. And he told me that his brother was looking for some help getting, getting his company launched. And he saw what I could do in the shop just from like an organizational standpoint and you know, making things efficient and, and all that. And we got introduced and I started working while his brother hired me. His name was Nathan. His brother hired me. And I, I kind of approached the whole thing from. Well, if I need to build this company, I need to know as much of it as possible.
Andrew Hutchison: Sure.
Cody Hiebert: And through the piping trades I diverged a couple of times. I went to university and for engineering and specifically structural engineering. And I took my ability to work with companies and I applied
00:05:00
Cody Hiebert: it to, you know, how things are made. And I just started, you know, absorbing as much as I could about audio and because this fledgling little audio company showed some real promise. And I was a musician. Ever since I was really young, I was playing music.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And I took a, ah, liking to the drums and so not really.
Andrew Hutchison: Not really a musician then. That’s the, that’s the old joke, right? Which I shouldn’t have brought up really. Yeah. Ah, what is it? What’s the.
Cody Hiebert: Oh, no, no, you’re. You are correct. I’ve. I’ve heard some pretty horrific drumming.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that would probably have been me, you know, zero, zero rhythm.
Cody Hiebert: I was I was I took a liking to the drums and I started teaching myself and everything that I did in music was all self taught and my father had perfect pitch.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: He can, he can hear something and know exactly what it is and, and dial into it. And so I never had any schooling for, for music and I just started learning and really grappling with things and I took all of that and I combined it into learning as much as I could about audio. And it turned out that I Was actually pretty good. And I snapped into learning, you know, magnetics and speaker drivers and you know, electromechanical, magnetic, you know, structures. I, I adapted to it really, really fast. Like stupid fast. I don’t know how I did it, but I did. And yeah, we, I just started taking what I learned from building this company and I turned it into my own approach. And so Nathan and I still actually work together.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And we constantly bounce things back and forth. And through that process, I built Harbottle audio and I am m. The chief engineer and I am the CEO and we specialize on bass systems.
Your background in drumming sets you up well for designing a bass system
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah. And that’s, that’s an interesting thing. And what’s interesting is that your, your background, your, your skill at drumming means all your experience at hearing what a drum actually sounds like sets you up well for, for how the hell a bass system should work. Because, you know, by rights, to some degree, you would think if you got everything right, that drums or lower frequencies may be easier to reproduce in a way that you could fool the human to believe that it was live music. But Is that the way you feel about it? I mean, clearly most bass systems don’t get things right. I mean to have the amount of the pace, the impact, the dynamics, the lack of distortion is actually harder to get obviously at bass frequencies because much more energy. Energy involved. But, but it’s. I don’t know. It’s I don’t know. I think, I think I’ve lost my point now in a way. But the fact is that you know what a drum sounds like and that’s a great, great start because I sometimes wonder whether half the people in hi fi have ever even been to a concert. But Moving right along.
Women have very sensitive hearing, according to my wife. And sometimes customers mention, uh, this as well
so the, the, the, the other firm. Do you wish to mention Nathan’s business as well or is it, is it not irrelevant at this point or. I mean, he’s still trading, obviously.
Cody Hiebert: Oh yeah, he’s, he’s still trading. we’re, we’re the primary partner. we call ourselves like divorced partners. So he has his own company and I have my own company.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And most of the work goes through Harbottle, but he does a lot of really high end custom audio systems. And his company is called Funk Audio F U N K Audio. And he’s also located here in Alberta as well.
Andrew Hutchison: Oh, okay.
Cody Hiebert: And ah, what, what you’re saying about drumming is, I know exactly where you’re going with that. drums have, have a couple of components the attack is extremely, extremely dynamic. So when the mallet hits the skin.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: That skin is called the batter. And the batter is extremely dynamic. But then the shape of the drum, the drum itself, the shell, also on the bottom end has what’s called a resonant. And that resonant does exactly that. It resonates along with the. So it produces a follow up sustain. And so it has two things in it.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And you can actually relate them directly to amplifier power. The attack on the batter. That is peak output. So that, that’s a peak, you know, hit it, bang.
Andrew Hutchison: Yep.
Cody Hiebert: Right. And the follow up sustain, that’s RMS power.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes. Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: So that in order to create the sustain for as long as it needs to be created for a speaker driver has to be able to do both at the same time
00:10:00
Cody Hiebert: while creating other frequencies at the same time. And that’s where bass gets extremely complicated. Because the rate of change below 100-150 Hz, you know, m. It’s kind of a gray area. The rate of change from 100 to 150Hz down into infrasonic is extremely exponential. But it’s exponential also in a way where the rate at which a person hears is also changing exponentially as well. So the audibility of bass starts to change a lot. And the sensitivity of the individual. So the hearing capability really matters. And ironically enough, women are excellent at hearing like my wife can hear. Literally like our. Our audio system in our house is fully active, so we’ve got no passive crossovers. Everything is digital dsp like I built everything from the ground up. You know, this is. It’s a pretty skookum system. Even though it’s fairly small, there’s a lot of control over it. And she can hear 0.1 of a millisecond delay, really difference.
Andrew Hutchison: She can also hear that, she can also hear all those comments you make under your breath in the other room. they’ve got like radar ears. they sort of move around. And then of course they’re super like bionic woman ears. But anyway, that’s another story. no, that is my experience as well. And sometimes people think I’m not being completely serious. And sometimes customers mention, this as well, that, you know, they’ve changed something in the system and their partner, often a woman is, in another part of the house and it’s like, what are you, what have you changed? What have you done? You know, what is something that sounds better? Well, it sounds better in the other room, at least. But, but, but yeah, they are. They’ve. They are. They are, ah, they’re great listeners. Maybe they are, but they certainly have very sensitive hearing. Maybe they don’t, you know, maybe they, their hearing doesn’t cop the industrial H that the male hearing does. in many cases, maybe it’s just the way they are. They just, I mean, they are, they are more sensitive creatures generally. I, I’ve heard. I don’t know that that’s true. so anyhow. So you use, you use your wife as a reference for, subtle improvements a lot.
Cody Hiebert: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Like she, she’s got a, she’s got abilities that, that I don’t. One thing I’ve learned in business in general is if you want to get the best out of something, you have to put your pride aside and you have to give credit where credit is due in that there are other people that bring something to the table, that it’s not that it needs to be recognized for the sake of, you know, like, you know, putting people up on a pedestal or anything like that, but it’s an acknowledgment of where the, the process starts and then relating that to the end result. And in business I find that that’s just a really good practice. It lends to transparency. It lends to really good business, ethics and acumen. And over time, you know, the reputation builds. And my reputation is one, you know, somebody that is, you know, focused on fidelity, number one. The end result of the user is attached to that fidelity. And then, you know, just really good customer service. But that also breaks down into, you know, how transparent we are with, you know, projects and what the person is going to get. And when I say to somebody, hey, listen, you’re over designing this, this subwoofer is going to, you know, smoke anything that you’ve ever had. And it’s going to be intensely loud. And they come back to me and say, yeah, you’re right, this thing is a beast. You know, we deliver exactly what is stated on the website, exactly what we state in our policies. And acknowledging all the people that are part of that recipe leads to an excellent dish that’s palatable for everybody. Because ultimately, ultimately people are looking for, a product or an experience when they’re buying anything that makes them comfortable.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: But also in that comfort shows or reveals that they don’t have anything to worry about. That’s what that comfort is. I don’t have anything to worry about. Am I comfortable in this condition?
If my wife didn’t push me to, you know, keep designing speakers
And as A company, you know, acknowledging where all the good stuff comes from. Like, I would, I would not be anywhere if I never met Nathan.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And if we didn’t become really tight
00:15:00
Cody Hiebert: friends through the process, I would be nowhere. If my wife didn’t push me to, you know, keep designing speakers and, and do the things I love and then translate that into a company, I would still be doing whatever in the pipe trades, you know, like, not really enjoying my job.
Andrew Hutchison: No.
Cody Hiebert: You know, like, I enjoy this way better. I work more hours and I work harder, but I enjoy it way more because of what the industry has given me and what this experience in this industry has given me. So. So I think that leads to a cohesive unit that ultimately the end user is actually investing in.
What are people buying when they’re investing in audio gear
And I think that’s worth at least a mention in the discussion of, you know, what are people buying when they’re investing in audio gear that is of a certain caliber.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: You walk into Walmart or whatever, you know, store and you buy something for 50 bucks and you, you’re investing in that store and that store’s policy to look after you after that point for whatever that $50 is going to give you or you buy it on Amazon or whatever. When you’re dealing with, with a manufacturer, Direct like us, or very close to direct, we only have one layer of certified representatives between us and, and clients. And even at that I still handle a lot of clients, you know, head on.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: you, you are investing in, in what we have to offer. And, and that does look a little bit different when you’re getting into, you know, that personal touch application.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, I agree and I wholeheartedly, and I feel like we, we, we could, we could almost divide off a number of brands from such as yours, from perhaps the, the mainstream of the hi Fi industry. I think there would be. The listener might be wondering, I’ve never heard of this company before. This gentleman seems to know exactly what he’s doing. why have I not heard of them?
What is the performance standard for a subwoofer
And you know, and so what I’m leading up to saying is that there is, there is very much two kinds of Well, there’s a niche within the hi F industry, if you want to use that horrible expression, which is brands that are, such as yourself, that are only concerned with performance, reliability, exceptional customer service, and possibly don’t possess much of a marketing department. And on the other hand, the brands that everyone knows clearly have a fantastic marketing department. One then wonders, one then wonders about the rest. The marketing department talks a lot about engineering and Special features and a lot of acronyms. But we, you and I both know that that’s, that is marketing. It’s, it’s in many cases, not in all cases. but I mean the reality is your subwoofers as I understand them, are not inexpensive. They’re clearly made to chuckle, chuckle. They’re clearly, they’re clearly made to exceptional standards. And we’re going to talk about that in a second. I think that that’s. And then the problem is for you and for I and other people who ah, are very concerned about quality is that a lot of people actually a don’t care. So you’re sort of selling to a niche of clients in a way. Well, people think they care about performance and quality but in many cases they’ve not really heard anything that serious anyhow because you can only hear what’s in most hi fi stores and most hi fi stores sell what sells which is affordable, well marketed products. So y. You do operate exactly in a slightly, in a different dimension to some degree. I mean do you want to highlight some key rather than, let’s not talk too much about the science and perhaps talk about some of the aspects of the way you make things and some of the troubles and extra effort that you go to that does help to delineate your harbottle ah, subwoofers from, from the likes of a, you know, a Velodyne or a rel or something that everyone knows in a, in a subwoofer. What, what do you think are the biggest differences?
Cody Hiebert: Well, it’s manufacturing to a standard.
Cody Hiebert: Like it’s a very short jump to get into science. So I’m to honor what you asked. I’m gonna stay away from science for the time being for a second. But that standard is based in science, it’s based in physics. So everything that you hear an audio file talk about in terms of like transparency and like you know and you know overhang and
00:20:00
Cody Hiebert: you know, thickness and like all these, all these words, they’re actually describing a physical component on the physical behavior of the system.
Andrew Hutchison: Indeed.
Cody Hiebert: So, so when you’re looking at engineering to a standard, you have to define the standard. Right? Like, like how do you manufacture something and go okay, well it’s really high performance. What is performance? Like what is the basis of that m of that metric? If it’s SPL, 2 meter ground plane or 1 meter ground plane that needs to be highlighted that the measure of performance is SPL and SPL only. We’re not going to infer other, meaning. But if it’s spl and distortion. Okay, what kind of distortion? Yeah, like, most people don’t know that. There’s like many kinds of distortion. Harmonic distortion is like, it’s just the mechanical components of the driver.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: You want to reduce harmonic distortion, use better parts, job done. Like, it’s, it’s really not that hard to deal with it. It is kind of scientific to a certain degree because it does jump into intermodulation effects and a few other things. But it quickly comes back to, okay, what is the performance standard? And so our performance standard hinges on a number of factors. Number one, it hinges on inaudible distortion. So all distortions of all types cannot be audible at the maximum power handling capability over the engineered bandwidth of the driver. Now that’s probably a big mouthful. And people are going, what? The engineered what of the what?
Andrew Hutchison: I think my eyes glazed over myself. and I mean, what you really want to do in an. So in an ideal world, the, the woofer would perfectly represent the waveform that’s been recorded of, let’s say a kick drum. Kick drum, tom, Tom, whatever. We’ll talk drums, you know, for a second.
Color in hi fi can change the waveform of a recorded sound
Well, you know, bass guitar, double bass.
Cody Hiebert: I played all kinds of stuff. You can refer to whatever instrument you want.
Andrew Hutchison: You basically. So someone has gone to some trouble to record that instrument. And really, in an ideal world, your, your base system would just follow that waveform perfectly. Is that, is that what you would regard as perfection?
Cody Hiebert: Exactly.
Andrew Hutchison: With.
Cody Hiebert: No, that’s impossible.
Andrew Hutchison: But that’s. Well, well, is it impossible?
Cody Hiebert: It’s physically, it’s physically impossible. The only thing that can reproduce that exact recording is the instrument that created the like created that sound to begin with in that exact environment. And so when we take a step back to defining the, the the elements of performance.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: You know, we have to, we have to look. Do exactly what you’re talking about. Define sound.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: What is it that we’re listening to? And anytime you start to play back something through a system.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: That is outside of the recording studio, you’re going to introduce colorization of the sound. And I just used an audio file term. I’m sorry, but it will color, it will change the sound, it will change the waveform because it’s not exact. Now how does it change the waveform? Well, the entire system is made up of different components. You got the speaker driver, the box, the amp, and then whatever is processing or shaping the signal going into the amplifier. So it’s your input Stage signal shaping. Now all of those things combine to make a certain sound. Sound a certain way. Now the job is like if the system is completely free of Color.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: I’m sorry, I’m just making myself cringe. It was completely free of.
Andrew Hutchison: It’s not a bad word though is it?
Cody Hiebert: I mean in the sense it really isn’t.
Andrew Hutchison: I mean, I mean really color. I mean I, I could be completely wrong but my life has been spent thinking that color in a hi fi system is, is a deviation from a, a linear response. and obviously there could be. It can be, yeah but it could.
Cody Hiebert: Also be very pleasant.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, that and that, well that I was just about to say that deviation could actually be a ah rose tinted deviation and is quite enjoyable. and I’m not exactly, I’m not to be honest, I’m not really against that. I mean
00:25:00
Andrew Hutchison: mean that’s where I stand. That’s not relevant to what you’re doing there and where you sit in this. But I think colour is an okay word. Feel free to use color.
Cody Hiebert: Okay, I’ll use color.
Distortion is frequencies added that were not supposed to be there
So when the system starts to play back the original recording it is going to add or even subtract certain elements of that playback. Well what, what’s included in playback? Well you have the original signal, right? You have all manners of distortion bad and good. Because there are some distortions that are not offensive and they do sound pleasant, right?
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And then you have the opposite of distortion. Like what is distortion? Distortion is frequencies added that were not supposed to be there to begin with. Especially harmonic distortion. Indeed they’re added and they’re not supposed to be there. All distortion is added and it’s not supposed to be there. Now because of Newton, for every action there’s peaceful and opposite reaction and drop some science. For every action there’s an equal, equal and opposite reaction. So because we know distortion exists, compression also exists or the lack of the original sound wave. It’s compressed. Well how is it compressed? Well there’s many ways that it can be compressed and so in our company we define performance by those, by, by these things. We’ve got the original sound, right? Yeah, we’ve got distortion compression. We have efficiency which is affected over the bandwidth of the driver. So what is it capable to? How deep and like what’s the bandwidth in frequency and then the overall output? So how loud can it go? All of those things need to combine in order to create quoting this kind of sounds bad but it’s the, it’s the least audit bleed offensive result as possible. So Distortion can’t be audible at maximum output. Compression can’t be audible past or measurable past one decibels at, maximum output. And everything is referenced to maximum output over the design bandwidth of the system. And I just used two different words. One was engineered bandwidth and was design bandwidth. Just to give you a hint on what those are. Engineered bandwidth is the engineered bandwidth of the driver itself. The design bandwidth is the design bandwidth of the system. Those can be different from each other according to what the amplifier is capable of handling. And, from that standpoint, we found out really quick, in order to maintain a performance metric within that very, very small box, roughly the size of a postage stamp, we have the insane, task of monitoring quality control. So our quality control measures are on our baseline models in Cassini. our company has a brand name called Cassini, and all of our subwoofers fall under that. And Harbottle Audio is like, basically the engineering head, and Cassini is the brand that we produce. We also produce, one other brand, and we’re working on another one right now. but outside of that, inside Cassini, the baseline models, they are, Oh, my goodness. I just lost my thought. That’s like, you will Alzheimer’s.
Andrew Hutchison: Well, you know, you’re getting on a bit. I mean, like, it’s.
Cody Hiebert: I’m 40. Yeah. I’m just about 46.
Andrew Hutchison: Crikey. Yeah. Well, that’s when it starts.
Cody Hiebert: That’s.
Andrew Hutchison: That’s. I reckon that’s almost exactly when I started not being able to, Oh, m. Yeah, you’re talking about qc. And. And do talk about qc.
Our baseline models hit 500 points of quality control on every single model
And then I want. I want you to just step side ways. Because the thing that I’ve seen of your products that’s interested me is your better models would appear to be made from maybe birch ply, but some kind of plywood. And then you’ve gone and laminated them with carbon fiber. I want to know about that, because other than the fact it looks spectacular, because I just saw a YouTube video, of someone that you paid off to do a really good review. Uh-huh. but he shot some very nice images of it from different angles. And it looks. That’s a. That’s a. That’s a cool finish. And I guess there’s a. There’s a functional reason, but go back and Finish off the QC story.
Cody Hiebert: QC. Our baseline models hit, just over 500 points of quality control on every single unit produced. And
00:30:00
Cody Hiebert: from there, it goes up to just around 600 on the more complex models. That we build.
Andrew Hutchison: So what’s it, what’s up?
Cody Hiebert: And that’s.
Andrew Hutchison: What’s a point of quality control? You mean that’s at a stage, there’s X number of ticks you put in boxes or what. When. What do you mean by the, 500 points of quality control?
Cody Hiebert: We physically test every single piece. So like, let’s say, in the Cassini line, we’ve got, you know, the tradition models, which are, you know, wood finishes. On our wood finishes, we have Baltic birch ply. And then we laminate full thickness raw veneer on top of that.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: So we don’t do. We don’t use process split veneer. We go full thickness. We actually sit it. And we have our own sewing, part in our facility, a sewing section. And we, you know, stitch our veneers together and then we, you know, apply, them so they’re full thickness. And now when they’re done.
Andrew Hutchison: Oh, hang on.
Cody Hiebert: They’re actually 14 ply.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay, so. So when you say full thickness, you mean like, I don’t know what that is. Is that like 1.2 mil instead of 0.6 or is that 6 mil instead of 0.6 or.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah, it’s like, it’s right around an eighth of an inch. So. Yeah.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: It’s like. Yeah, like two and a half mils or so.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, it’s full. Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: Actually, that’s. That’s a better question for Nathan because he’s the actual woodworker.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: but, it’s. It’s full thickness raw. We don’t buy it processed. We process it ourselves.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah. Okay, Interesting.
Cody Hiebert: Now the risk of putting veneer on is that you can, if you’re not careful, you can get air bubbles underneath the veneer. Right. Stands to reason. It’s just like, you know, putting 3M film on, on a window or whatever. You can get air bubbles in it if you’re not careful.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And so the, the idea is that we do a knock test on the sheet after it’s veneered to make sure we got full adhesion. And we actually test that piece to make sure we’ve. It’s good. And same with our, our driver cones. We pop a cone off the mold, we do a quick resonance test to make sure that it is sounding the way it should sound.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay. and that’s a point of quality control at that point. That’s.
Cody Hiebert: That’s one point of quality control of.
Andrew Hutchison: So then 5M500 is a hell of a lot then. So if You. Yeah, O. And so. So you just.
Cody Hiebert: Everything is checked at every single stage. So if. If you put your hands on it, it’s checked.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay. And you’re. And you’re saying you’re checking cones, and that’s because you’re making your own cones in house. Is that right? Wow. Okay, so you’re making your own drivers in house.
Cody Hiebert: Yes.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay, so this is pretty started.
We build everything in house from as close to raw material as possible
All right. Okay.
Cody Hiebert: Well, yeah, we machine. We. We have a CNC shop. We machine our motors. We use neodymium and we specialize in long stroke drivers. So we use overhung and underhung motor topologies.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And yeah, we build everything in house from as close to raw material as possible. So there’s only, like three components, four components on a speaker, driver that we actually have made out of house.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And, and we bring them in. But those are all what we call, hard and soft parts. So they don’t actually have any electrical, magnetic, you know, attachment to it. It’s just, you know, it’s like the. The spring terminals for the. Yeah, yeah, Spring terminals. The, Actually, we make our own dust caps.
Andrew Hutchison: Make your own test caps. Okay.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah, we press them.
Andrew Hutchison: I was going to say you don’t machine them out of a solid billet of titanium. So, But. But the, So the.
Cody Hiebert: Not yet.
Andrew Hutchison: So. Not yet. Yeah, don’t. Yeah. Oh, you thought, voice. coils are something you. Are you bringing in or you make.
Cody Hiebert: We have. We have them made on shore. we have them made in the U.S. wow.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And, they. They actually have to hit really high quality control standards, too. So, you know, they’re nothing. Nothing is allowed to leave, like, when we’re done. Qc.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: The product is what we call verify for full rated use. So that’s the design bandwidth of the unit. So, like Cassini subwoofers, they’re 5 hertz to 200 hertz. So we run them 5 hertz to 200 hertz, full power.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And we do that for hours.
Andrew Hutchison: So band. Band.
Cody Hiebert: Usually a couple of days.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: no, we do. We sweep. We do pink noise and then we run content because.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: Pink noise sucks to listen to. So we actually have our own. It does.
Andrew Hutchison: I think it’s better than sweeping anyway.
Cody Hiebert: We might as well enjoy these things. So. Yeah, that’s content to them.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And then we run them right up to full power and we just hold them there for a couple or three days. Oh,
00:35:00
Cody Hiebert: really?
Andrew Hutchison: For three days? Okay. So. Oh, yeah, that’s.
Cody Hiebert: Well, they’re Designed. They’re designed not to break. If you’re going to invest in something that has 500. Like a box.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: Like, let’s be real here, a subwoofer is a box. Like it’s a speaker box. It’s, you know, it’s. It’s nothing, you know, outside of this world that people have seen. Like, it’s pretty normal stuff.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Cody Hiebert: But you’re going to invest in something that’s got 500 points of quality control on it. You want to know that you can run it to the ragged edge and hold it there. And that’s exactly where our, our gear is designed to live. Right at the ragged edge. And it loves it.
Perfect climate control inside the motor, like temperature controls
Like, it’s just happy. Temperatures are good. Like nothing is getting too hot. Perfect climate control inside the motor, like temperature controls. perfect. Like inductance linearity, flux modulation linear. Oh, sorry. I don’t want to get too heavy into the technical science, but perfect linearity in all the electrical. Electrical magnetic components. And it’s just like right in that sweet spot, you know, like a race car. You know, a race car isn’t designed really to cruise at, 20 miles an hour.
Andrew Hutchison: No.
Cody Hiebert: But when you put it through the corners at, you know, just this side of the tires peeling off, then it’s really happy. The engine’s happy, suspension’s happy, everything’s happy. The difference is, with our gear, the quieter you play it, the, the more it sounds like it should sound like it. It sounds exactly the same. Rather, it sounds exactly the same at full power as it does at very low power.
Andrew Hutchison: Well, that, really, that is. That’s where a race car analogy is, Is, is. Is appropriate. Yeah. Well, no, in a way it’s appropriate because a road. You take a road car to the racetrack and it kind of just heals over and falls apart and the brakes go off and the thing ultimate and then it’s kind of like worn out at the end of a decent session. Whereas a race car is made from better materials, designed to operate, you know, at higher temperatures, at the limit and last the appropriate amount of time and everything’s engineered properly to work at the limit of that vehicle, and not overheat and fail. At least that’s a modern race car. Obviously an old Lotus Bits just fell off and maybe it finished the race or not. But, lots of trouble.
Cody Hiebert: Usually seriously.
Andrew Hutchison: Usually serious. Always serious. They should change the name Low T. So, it’s, it’s, They’re a very pretty car, though. I just, I Still, I still have, still never owned one. I really, I really wanted one, but I guess I’m not going to get one. they’ve kind of, kind of gone up during COVID as well in a way that stops lots of people from. Well, all cars have gone up and I guess the same has happened in Canada.
Efficiency of a subwoofer affects so many aspects
But let’s not move on to the subject of cars, just yet. Ah, so. So I think that’s a great analogy. I mean there are the fact that your, your subwoofer is the race car of the subwoofer world versus XYZ brand that sells for a lot less money that literally when you, you pound on it will fold. You know, it will go, it will compress is probably the thing that I guess it’ll compress vigorously and it will. And it will partly do that I guess because protection circuit will kind of soft, limiting if you like will cut in and stop.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah. Compression can be, can come from anywhere. That’s the interesting thing about DSP is that you can program like in our DSP systems we can program bandwidth compression and we can take a bandwidth, okay, between these frequencies at this power. I want this much compression. And so you can limit a system in such a way so that, that it’s preserving excellent sound quality.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, yeah.
Cody Hiebert: But you’re not getting linear output performance across the board, across the amplitude, across that bandwidth. So in dynamics you start losing, especially in a subwoofer you start losing the lower frequencies. And that’s an interesting thing about efficiency, is that efficiency is, it affects so many different aspects. Like if, if I look at, if I ask people, like if I, when clients contact me, they’ll ask me like, well what, what is this efficiency thing about? I say okay, well what is inefficiency? Well, if you have a if you have spl, say you’ve got 10 decibels and then you turn your receiver up 3 decibels and it’s putting out 13 and then you turn it up a 3 more decibels. You’re expecting 16, but you’re only getting 14. You’ve lost 2 decibels. That is inefficiency. But it’s inefficiency in dynamics.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And that’s what a lot of people start missing when they’re looking at compression.
00:40:00
Cody Hiebert: Where is that inefficiency introduced? Is it in the driver or is it in the amplifier? Either way you’re getting a non linear dynamic range across the bandwidth. So if your bandwidth is. Well I, I start at 5 hertz. So we’ll use 5 hertz.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And we go to 5 hertz to 120 hertz. If your bandwidth is 5 hertz to 120 hertz and you’re not getting linear output. But in dynamic playback, let’s say between 5 and 20 Hertz on brand ABC subwoofer at X amplitude or how much power output you’re expecting, then you’re getting a non linear playback and compression is being introduced. But where is it? Is it in the amplifier or is it in the driver? And that’s the big question that I found in my years of R D, before I even started my company. I found that it was very difficult to nail that down from one brand to another. It’s not necessarily a, regulated metric that is used. They go, okay, well it’s maximum spl and this is the bandwidth and here’s the power, like, here’s the amplifier power. Kind of like the highlight reel, which is great and fine. I mean I use the highlight reel myself. M but I also engineer and build to a standard that doesn’t allow me to deviate. So when somebody puts it in their room, they can accurately predict, especially like a room designer, like a professional integrator, they can accurately predict what that subwoofer is going to do in that room. And they can accurately, account for headroom. So how much dynamic headroom do you actually want? 3 DB?
Andrew Hutchison: 6?
Cody Hiebert: 10? What exactly do you want out of the system? And then you can size the system appropriately. So from a tool standpoint, engineering to a standard hitting quality control that assures that standard every single time on every single unit. Like let’s put this in perspective. Most people buy two to four subwoofers, you know, four subwoofers for home theater, two suburb woofers for a smaller home theater, two subwoofers, that’s a thousand, that’s over a thousand points of quality control. Four subwoofers, that’s 2,000 points of quality control, minimum. Well, it is on that system. It is designed to work. That’s its purpose. What would I like?
Andrew Hutchison: Would you, so it’s, we, it works and we know exactly how it’s going to work. So the integrator can calculate, you know, like you say, the amount of headroom over, I don’t know, reference level or whatever. And, and so that they know what the rest of the system has to be to keep up with it, or vice versa. The subwoofer system can keep up with the main system.
I’m curious about where your subwoofer system delivers
But I’m interested for you to describe in kind of hi fi terms like color, and others that you don’t much like. where, where your subwoofer system delivers and in what way is it, you know the, and I mean I think, you know I, I think rel is. You know we don’t want to talk about brands so much but these are at different price points completely. So I think we can, I mean clearly your product is, is superior because it’s better built but it also costs X amount times more which we’ll come to price in them in a bit. For those wondering, yeah, they are less than $1 million folks. So don’t panic. They’re not, they’re not stratospheric. the the What. So what’s, what are people going to hear? They’ve, they’ve currently got two rails, you know.
Cody Hiebert: That’s excellent. I get asked that, I get asked that all the time. What generally happens. I got, I have a client that recently went from a product that is really well known especially in Canada and the U.S. i’m not going to name names. Well, I mean the price point is so different. The engineering is different. You know like it starts with.
Andrew Hutchison: Starts with P. Compare it.
Cody Hiebert: It starts with J.
Andrew Hutchison: Starts with J. Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And he, he said and we’re talking two 18s.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: So he’s got two 18 inch subwoofers and then he gets two of my 18s. Okay. C 18s. So they’re the carbon fiber aspect that we’re going to talk about a little later. and he said that there’s, there is no comparison. But the first thing that he mentioned was that they don’t like my product doesn’t sound thick and that’s interesting. The first thing that most people talk
00:45:00
Cody Hiebert: about is either going to be thickness or how good their main speaker sounds.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And the second thing that I mentioned is really interesting because I am like a full on audiophile. You know, like I’m a hi fi guy.
Andrew Hutchison: Hang on a minute.
Cody Hiebert: I listen to music.
Andrew Hutchison: You’re ah, a full on audio file on. Not an audio file but I’m a.
Cody Hiebert: I’m a techie, I’m a science audiophile. Like I don’t like really using the words but I like, I like kind of that esoteric stuff. Like I’m a, I’m a nerd. I geek out on the science aspect when it comes to the audiophile experience.
Andrew Hutchison: Cody’s a nerd. Geoff from hey now Hi Fi sells really good hi Fi that you can’t get everywhere, both online and in store. You may be interested or you may not. If so, check out his website. That’s heynowhifi.com. that’s heynowhifI.com.
Cody Hiebert is an audio file enthusiast and a nerd
we’re back with Cody, Cody Hiebert from Harbottle, subwoofer Engineering Laboratories. and and you were just explaining that you are an audio file, and a nerd. So continue.
Cody Hiebert: I am. Because like if you go to my Frequently Asked questions FAQ on my website, there’s a tab that says audio file terms or audio file terms and explained in terms of physics or, or something like that. And I physically sat down, I took every single audiophile term that I could think of that I’ve been using over years.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: And I applied physics to every single term because it can be explained in physics. And there’s nothing really wrong with that inherently. As long as there’s a baseline for science that attaches itself to the more colorful explanation or the colorful word in that, in that, in that aspect. Like I like, I like the geeky nerdy stuff. Like I, I run fully active stereo 2 channel. My amplifier that I built is somewhere around the twenty thousand dollar mark for me to build it. You know, really, I’ve got, is that. Yeah. And I’ve got I’ve got two channel bookshelf speakers that are fully active.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: You know, like who runs bookshelf speakers that are fully active? You know. But I live in a smaller house and I don’t really listen that loud. I listen loud in our workshop, you.
Andrew Hutchison: Know, because that’s where all those tests going at 100, you know, for a.
Cody Hiebert: Change of pace for my own listening it. I have a pair of my carbon fiber bookshelf speakers and you know, I just sit back and enjoy anything from Foo Fighters to Miles Davis, Artetha Franklin, Etta James, like, you know, Sam Henshaw, you know, Anthony Hamilton, like the works. That, that’s my taste. And when it comes to explaining, you know, physics, you know, attaching, attaching that physical action or the physical characteristic of a speaker to you know, a word that has meaning or a word that, you know, kind of describes something now it takes on a different kind of meaning. So yeah, I am a bit of an audiophile.
Andrew Hutchison: So you’re an audio file which is, you know, and an enthusiast for equipment enthusiast. That’s a better, that reproduces music.
Thickness specifically is driver compression; suspension compression is also important
the, the difference between the brand that starts with J2 18s and two of your C18s, you said you talked about thickness, so that’s in that comparison. So what, what the decline is going to hear is to continue that comparison when they change subwoofers.
Cody Hiebert: So thickness is, thickness is compression.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: Thickness specifically is driver compression. So what happens when in compression itself, when it’s at you know, it’s full realization where you’re compressing into an audible spectrum past one or two decibels and it’s clearly audible that you’re losing decibels. Okay, well what people will think of first is I’m losing output. And that’s true, but it’s also an expression of inefficiency. So where is that compression coming from? Well, there’s lots of places where it can come from. Like the most popular is thermal.
Cody Hiebert: So how hot is the voice call getting? Well, that thermal can affect the magnetic flux characteristic of the driver and so it can’t articulate and get out of its own way. So the driver starts to lose the ability to move. And that’s why you stop gaining SPLs, because the driver just simply can’t move. And the more power you put to it,
00:50:00
Cody Hiebert: the hotter it gets M. The hotter it gets, the more it can’t move. So it’s really like a complete lose, lose situation when it comes to thermal compression. But then you also have suspension, ah, compression. So a lot of PA gear is designed to save itself. Like most pro audio equipment is designed so you can turn it up and just shovel as much power as you want to it and it will limit on the suspension and it won’t be able to go anywhere. Yeah, because the suspension is too tight. However, the coil and everything is totally fine and it can handle all the thermal aspects. It’s just the suspension isn’t going to let it move once it gets to a certain, you know, a, certain output level. And when that happens, when you start backing off the power on that kind of driver, what happens is you get what I like to call early compression. And that leads to intermodulation distortion or intermodulation. Specifically intermodulation compression. It’s where the physical components in the suspension and the cone start to interact with each other and they either add distortions that modulate with the original sound wave, the frequencies coming into the driver, it starts to modulate and change things, or it will compress certain frequencies because again, Newton’s third law, we end up seeing some compression in specific frequencies that modulates and changes. And so what happens is the sonic signature sounds like A cartoon version of itself. It is like, it’s like, oh yeah, that’s.
Andrew Hutchison: That.
Cody Hiebert: That sounds like what I think a Lamborghini Aventador should sound like, but.
Cody Hiebert: It’s not. But the guys that own it is not quite right. It’s like, yeah, it’s there, but it’s not quite what it’s like in real life. And then Yeah, because effect gets worse.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: As you start to compress. So from just those two aspects we can see you get thickness, but then you get the loss of detail that lends itself to reality. And those two things are the first things that show up when people ask me what is the difference going to be and what the feedback that I get is that it’s those two things. And generally the second one where it’s like a cartoon version of itself when that’s removed or the thickness is removed. The people who are really into their main speakers, like they’re like, you know, they’re super stoked so they got salon to use or you know, some upper end focals or whatever.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And they’re like all about their main speakers or their LCR in their theater. They’ll come back and say, my main speaker sound better.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: What did you do? It’s like, well, what happens in the low end of that subwoofer affects the top end of the subwoofer, which affects the crossover of the subwoofer to the main speaker, which affects the load on that main speaker. So now your main speaker is now unburdened and can move more freely and it will sound better. You’ll get more of the sonic signature out of your loudspeaker than you would have before because you’re removing the stress off of it. And that’s nuance, like that’s, that’s really tough to place because when you say most people hear differently, like they’ll, they prioritize different sounds differently. And so the thing that stands out to them first will shift a little bit. But those are the basic rules that tend to hit first.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay. And so thank you for that. That, that, that. So basically it’s, it’s tighter, cleaner, less, there’s no added color. And and, and obviously it hits harder, much more, you know, quicker. Quick, because it’s quicker. And there’s this detail in the notes that’s, that’s, that’s blurred by this compressive thing that’s happening with the the lesser subwoofer. But you said that you’re taking the load off the Main. You’re not really meaning you take the load off the main speakers. It’s just that it’s a cleaner crossover region because presumably the main speakers are driven, you know, separate, crossover arrangements and power amps. Right. I’ve. I presume that if it’s an AV system, the controller, the preamp processor is. Is dealing with the crossover and there’s separate power amps. So
00:55:00
Andrew Hutchison: just. Can you just clarify. Clarify that point and then what I want you to explain is you’ve achieved this, but what are the top five things that you’ve done in your subwoofer that make it different? Different? And I guess we’re talking materials and structure and design. But. Yeah, just before you tell us that, though, just so when you say it takes the load off the main speakers, do you want to clarify that just for,
Cody Hiebert: Sure. So what happens in a crossover point is you end up with, especially in a room with a subwoofer, you end up with something called phase shift. Right now. So phase is basically time in terms of 360 degrees. And when you have phase shift, but then you try to combat it with gain like boosting and that what you’re doing is you’re trying to. You’re putting a. You’re putting a band aid on, you.
Andrew Hutchison: Know, trying to fill a hole.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah, you’re trying to fill a hole that. That really isn’t there. Like, you know, the. The best tool is something else.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: And so that would be integration in the time domain.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah.
When integration in the time domain is done and phase shift is looked after
Now, when integration in the time domain is done and phase shift is looked after and all those things combined. So that crossover region of the main speaker can now sum, really well when you’re not producing compression and upper bass distortions and inappropriate behavior of the subwoofer, the lower bass of the speaker, the tendency to drive the loudspeaker, the main, harder to get the sound you want out of it because the subwoofer will only ever do so much. So you kind of like run it. A lot of people will run it up to its maximum. Okay. The subwoofer is doing everything that it can. The tendency to push the loudspeaker to match is now way down because you have dynamic capability in the subwoofer. So what this can allow you to do is a number of things. One, you can play with time domains. So our DSP systems are very powerful. You can play with all pass filters, delay. You can even invert phase. You can do all kinds of stuff with them. And then you can Actually run our subwoofers because, like, keep in mind, Cassini is good up to 200 hertz. So if you’ve got something like, say, like a magna pan or, you know, a big electrostat and it’s having a hard time getting down to, let’s say, 80 hertz.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: You can drive it up to 130.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And cross the subwoofer off at 130.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: Or cross the subwoofer over, sorry, at 130. Or slightly below. And then deal with the time factor to get it to image properly to the center between your left and right. And then what you’ve done effectively is you’ve actually moved the crossover point so the sub. The main speakers don’t have to produce as much bass in that one option.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: And so you literally remove the strain.
Andrew Hutchison: Well, that.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah, yeah, that telling. It doesn’t have to push so hard or.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes, sorry.
Cody Hiebert: Or just working in the time domain, you don’t have to drive gain so much. You don’t have to push the drive push the main speaker so much in order to get the, desired output or the effect that you’re looking for by. And then in turn compromising the main speaker’s own ability to produce stroke, which is, you know, the driver moving back and forth so that, that starts to lead to a better fidelity experience. Even though it’s nuanced, it does actually work because everything is pointed towards efficiency. Like, how efficient can this system be when we start to remove inefficiency, that is compression out of its behavior and especially in the upper base regions? You know, like, you really have to do a lot of DSP work behind the scenes. Like in a factory preset, you got to do a lot of DSP work in order to make sure that the driver doesn’t limit and it becomes challenging. So if you’re going to start limiting the ample, like using the amplifier to limit out the driver or use the DSP to limit, the driver behavior so it doesn’t produce poor fidelity effects. Well, then you have to make the decision, where is that audible limit? Like how far, is can this subwoofer go before it starts to produce something that can affect another speaker? And that becomes a real challenge when the
01:00:00
Cody Hiebert: design bandwidth of the driver or of the subwoofer is, you know, 110 hertz or 100 hertz? That becomes a challenge because we don’t know what the main speaker is going to do in the room. And I remember a podcast that you did a little while ago about room tuning and integration. and the one guy, the fellow you were interviewing, he said, that, the client was shocked and odd called him. He said, I thought you were just joking about like, about the room mattering this much. He’s like, I moved it like 4, like 10 millimeters or something. It was a small amount.
Andrew Hutchison: It was more than 10. But it was a tiny amount. That’s right, yeah.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah. But he fought it because he thought, well, this individual, you know, he may or may not know. But then he finally broke down just before, I think he was going to sell them.
Andrew Hutchison: That’s correct, yeah.
Cody Hiebert: Or something. Thing. And so he’s willing to give up everything that he put in and then he stopped himself, made a correction and bang at work. Well, that’s, that’s the room effect, right?
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: And that’s where a subwoofer that gets out of its own way in an enclosure that just shuts up like a nice quiet inert enclosure. A subwoofer that gets out of its own way and lets the loudspeakers do their job. It makes everything sound better. because it’s not introducing stuff. Can you repeat that?
Andrew Hutchison: That was actually my computer talking. Because in fact it was the guy reviewing your subwoofer. I just opened the computer because I just wanted to see what episode that was. Because you’re referring to David Spargo, and David Spargo, Actually, I noticed on your website that you’ve got a link to a video, a YouTube video, which we’ve not linked to m. Where, the interviewer, and I know the gentleman’s voice who works at the abc. I can’t remember who’s. What his name is, but he interviews Neville Thiele and, David Spargo, knew Neville Thiele well, well, so that was. There’s a. It’s a small world. So there’s just, just that connection there. But, I was going to, Yeah, I, I, Yeah, just to clarify a couple of points. Absolutely. I guess. I mean. Well, you’re saying that your, your subwoofer is of such quality that that placement is still obviously important, but big time. But you’re not making, you’re not having to make as much. You don’t have as many issues to deal with because it simply produces a cleaner sound. Can I.
David has a wonderful way of explaining complex thoughts in incredibly simple ways
So you’re talking about the cabinet there for a second. I still haven’t decided what episode that was. I think it was 14 off the top of my head. And I want to say, because for those listening because we do have a bit of a back catalog of, of stuff and some very interesting people. And I’m just, I’m checking right now. I’ve opened the page of our own website and there it is. It’s it’s not episode 14. It’s episode. Episode. It is episode 14. Yeah. Episode 14. so, yeah, yeah, David is a bit of an acoustics, What’s the word? I, I hesitate to use the word genius, but he has a very good understanding of it. And and not.
Cody Hiebert: No, he’s good.
Andrew Hutchison: Ably assisted by, knowing Neville Thiele. Who. And doesn’t Neville have a. Just a hat? Unfortunately. Just a wonderful way of explaining complex thoughts. in an incredibly simple way. Moving along.
Cody Hiebert: Definitely.
You’ve got a hundred words only on each subject to explain the key difference
Andrew Hutchison: What the hell have you done with your boxes, your drivers and your amplifiers? You’ve got a hundred words only on each subject to explain the key difference. Because I’ve, I’ve, I’ve. Yeah, but I mean it’s, it’s obvious in a way for me and I think for many listeners that, you know, clearly a lower priced, more affordable subwoofer. The, the enclosure is built from some pretty rudimentary simple materials in, in a, in a fashion that’s sturdy enough not to obviously rattle or fall apart, but other than that, you know, probably.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah, like audibly rattling and buzzing.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. They’ve, they’ve minimized that.
Why did you choose birch ply over mDF for your speaker enclosure
But you, I’m interested in, in your decision to use birch ply versus I guess everyone’s popular choice of mdf. And then in turn you’ve done this thing with the carbon fiber. And my question is, have you done that on the inside as well? So let’s talk enclosures. Why did you involve carbon fibre and birch ply?
Cody Hiebert: My background in structural engineering.
Cody Hiebert: the simple answer is that MDF
01:05:00
Cody Hiebert: has a higher modulus of elasticity, it’s more elastic, it has higher flexural modulus, so it flexes more. And as a product that when you’re, when you’re trying to mate pieces together that run perpendicular to each other, you’re, and you’re creating a bracing, structure inside the enclosure. Now this is loudspeakers as well. What happens is the speaker driver is creating energy. It’s the bracer. Is the brace’s job to control the energy, is the enclosure’s job to fight back against that energy. And so the, the enclosure, like the tub, the panels on the outside, they will, you know, vibrate a tiny little bit. Like you can put some Put your hand on the side of it and you can feel a little bit of the vibration coming through. But the bulk of the work in killing the energy and keeping the energy inside the enclosure and not letting it transfer to the outside environment through the wood is done by the bracing. So number one, people that say that bracing doesn’t matter, I laugh at them unbelievably because from a structural physics standpoint, if you look at what a subwoofer is doing, it’s a, little mini earthquake. Especially if you’re hitting infrasonics. You’re trying to produce little tiny mini earthquakes and control them in your room. That enclosure is doing a lot of work. So MDF just doesn’t fit the bill when it comes to that. Yes, it damps really well. It’s a great damping material. However, there is too much rate of change in the character, the frequencies between infrasonic and 100-150 Hz in that audible range. There’s too much rate of change for MDF to deal with. Just doesn’t work well as a structurally robust material. So we went with Baltic birch. And from an engineering standpoint, it’s really good to engineer with because the behavior is very predictable. And, with mdf, you can get some very strange, resonating patterns that show up. And now with the drivers that we have, because they are exceedingly clean right up to full stroke. So X max and beyond, you know, it’s really close to mechanical limits of the driver because they’re so clean. If the box makes a sound, that sound will go through the thinnest part of the speaker, which is the cone. So it’ll sound like the cone is making a sound.
Andrew Hutchison: It’s a funny thing, and that’s just.
Cody Hiebert: Distasteful when you’re looking at something that is, is, you know, crafted, you know, by high tech artisans like ourselves. Like that’s. You invest X amount of money into it and you like having a odd harmonic peek through every once in a while. Yeah, that’s just, you know, that that’s a corner cut that I personally can’t live with.
Andrew Hutchison: M. The. The whole cone thing is hilarious in a way because you go to all this trouble with this enclosure. Incredibly. I don’t know how thick you, your, your Baltic birch is, but you’ll tell us.
Cody Hiebert: 3/4 18 millimeters.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay. So that’s. Yeah, so it’s as thick as it needs to be. obviously heavily braced. But, is that. Yeah, I mean, it’s 18 millimeters thick. It’s cross, ah, laminated. It’s it’s a hell of a, it’s a, it’s an incredibly good material and I’ve got a greater respect for it for you. Yeah, absolutely.
Cody Hiebert: I’ve kind of, kind of 13 ply.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, it’s good stuff. And, and, and in many ways far superior to MDF for, for, for a loudspeaker enclosure of any kind. But, but we are not going to have that conversation right now. But the the point is you’ve got all of this stuff happening inside the enclosure, but ultimately, you know, you’ve got a 12, 15, 18 inch diameter. Well, the cones are not that diameter, but you know what I mean. The frame is that size. The cone is a bit smaller. But the point is you’ve got this cone. It’s, it’s a millimeter thick or something 2 millimeters thick. the rest of the box is 18 millimeters thick and in your case has a carbon fiber cloak over that. But the sound can just, just go straight out through the front through the cone. It’s kind of, it’s one of those weird quandary speakers. It is very irritating and there’s kind of no way around it, which. Okay, so that’s.
So I want you to explain about the carbon fiber in your cones
So I want you to explain about the carbon fiber, but then talk about your cones and how you feel that you might have reduced, like you said, letting various problematic sounds get back out through the cone. But, so where does the carbon work with the Baltic Birch? Explain that to us please.
Cody Hiebert: Okay, so
01:10:00
Cody Hiebert: what we do is we build what we call a carbon enclosure. So let’s call it an 18. Those are tags C18. So we build a C18 out of, out of Baltic. We shape it into its final shape and then we cover it, we cut a print and we cover it with carbon fiber and then we infuse the carbon fiber and we make the entire box into a composite and structure.
Cody Hiebert: So, so that composite structure is now the entire box. It’s not made from composite material. A lot of people would think it’s like, oh, they put carbon fiber on the ply and then they cut it up and they glue it all together. Not even close. We turn the entire thing. So what happens is the, the carbon fiber clamps down on the Baltic underneath it and it’s like grabbing onto your wrist and then never letting go. It just squeezes it from the outside and it holds that tension. That’s its job is to hold the tension forever. And what that does is a couple of things. It kills resident. Yes, it Damps from the outside.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, yeah.
Cody Hiebert: So it kills resonance, etc. Etc. But it also braces and adds stiffness to the enclosure. So the 18 millimeters is now closer to 23 millimeters thick of its effective thickness. We’ve gained thickness even though it’s one layer thick of carbon fiber on there, We’ve gained effective strength to the enclosure as a whole. And when you couple that with the appropriate amount of damping.
Andrew Hutchison: Yep.
Cody Hiebert: What you end up with is an extremely inert box. When you have an inert box and you’ve got a lot of very clean strokes, you now have free reign over another level of fidelity. So the box is clean, the stroke is of the driver is clean, the amp is clean right up to maximum. Inaudible AMP contributions, other than beautiful, crisp signal power, high power signal to the driver, everything is crystal. And you have free reign over another level of fidelity. So that fidelity gives you more freedom to do other things. Like, you can push the system harder.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, well, yes, for.
Cody Hiebert: Well, I mean, it’s already designed to go right to maximum, but you can push it harder in your own space. And an interesting component that I didn’t really count on. I mean, I experienced it myself when I was first, you know, doing R D on my own designs. But the room character got better. So, like, room distortions started to change.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: Go from one subwoofer to another. But the room characterization was oddly different in a very good way. It’s almost like distortion component, like harmonic. Especially like mechanical distortions when they’re reduced to a point where they’re not allowed to even show up anymore. It’s like they kind of reduce the harmonic effect in the room as well, and they get the room to settle down a little bit.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And that might be like a placebo thing that might be just, you know, my own. My own experience. I have had a couple of clients say the same thing as well. Like, they’ve experienced it. So it’s probably like, you know, a little bit, you know, one off or, you know, rare, you know, like hen’s teeth. But, Yeah, like, when you get that extra level of fidelity with all the performance that it comes with, you know, like, for some people, they’re looking for that end game infidelity, like they. Yeah, they want. Yes, they want it because of an inherent dissatisfaction. Like, I see a lot of upgrade itis in the industry. A lot of my clients come to me because they’ve had like, literally five different subwoofer brands, and either they failed or they don’t sound right. They sounded great when they first started, but the sound degraded over a few years time and they’re just kind of tired of it and they want, they
01:15:00
Cody Hiebert: just want to be done with it. Like one and done.
Andrew Hutchison: Yes.
Cody Hiebert: Try once or pay once, cry once or whatever. You know, like is they kind of adopt that.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: Approach and, and they just roll with it and so the carbon series fits.
Andrew Hutchison: The quality remains what they’re looking for long after the price is forgotten. The, exactly. The, the the Well it depends, depends how bad the price is, I guess.
We use Pascal for our amplifiers. We’ve been using them since pretty much day one
the you mentioned amplifier. Class D, Class ab. What, what, what sort of amplification do you do? You D Class D. Yep.
Cody Hiebert: We’re pretty open about who we use for our amplification. We use Pascal. We’ve been using them since pretty much day one. We did some tests with quite a few other amplifier manufacturers, but when I started rolling out I started with Pascal and I think I’m going to end with them. They’ve been excellent as an OEM for you know, so many years and rates of failure are really low.
Andrew Hutchison: Yep, good.
Cody Hiebert: And their topology really fits what our drivers can do. And that’s one thing that can’t be overlooked is a topology needs to fit what the driver’s capacity is and that, that symbiotic relationship has to exist. Like of course they gotta work together.
Andrew Hutchison: Absolutely.
All of our cones are all carbon fiber, multi layer thickness
the cone material, how, how thick is it and is it carbon fiber or if it’s on a carbon series woofer, it is carbon fiber. And you say you’re making that yourself.
Cody Hiebert: All of our cones are all carbon fiber, multi layer thickness, 24s are 21s and 24s are like four layers thick. And the 18s down through the 12s are three layers.
Andrew Hutchison: It’s a pretty hefty cone then.
Cody Hiebert: So yeah, they take about in our crush test like while we were doing deflection tests and then we decided to move it to a crush test to see what it would actually do. Yeah, deflection started I think at like 600 foot pounds.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: Square inch. And then it went, then it actually broke at Ah, like 1300. Wow.
Andrew Hutchison: I bet you that that went off with a bang.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah, ah, yeah, it snapped hard. No, they’re, they’re really, they’re really robust. But they again, carbon fiber isn’t just about stiffness. It has really good characteristics when it comes to deflection, when it comes to damping, especially in damping, you know, like you don’t want the cone to be so rigid that it creates harmonics within itself. Because then again, you’re adding to what should, you’re adding to the original signal, which, you know, you don’t really want to do if you’re looking for fidelity. And so the character of the cone does really matter and its strength and stiffness and damping characteristics matter. So carbon fiber for us is the best fit.
Andrew Hutchison: I mean ultimately the cone is the thing that is producing the sound after all. So, yeah, surrounds, no exotic materials there. You, you, you, you treated foam. Treat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so a heavy duty foam. Yep.
Cody Hiebert: yeah, they’re, they’ve, they have to have the right amount of compliance.
Andrew Hutchison: Indeed.
Cody Hiebert: So the, again, so the driver can articulate. So we really, you focus on what the surround can do at full extension. So when you’re producing, let’s say 10 Hz and the cone is traveling to X max, it also has to produce like 100 Hz frequencies in order to fill out the detail within that full X max stroke. So it has to be able to articulate at really very fine detail at very high extension for the low frequency. So it’s got to be able to do it all. So our cone, or, sorry, our surround selection and our spider selection is very, very particular when it comes to its behavior across the across the stroke level and how much content is being created within again, the design bandwidth of the unit. So for the carbon subwoofers, that’s 5 to 125 hertz and for the Cassini, tradition subwoofers, that’s five to 200 hertz. So it’s got to be able to produce all of that very, very cleanly and with like very good authority indeed.
Andrew Hutchison: And what, what, when you say X max, what, what is the, what is the linear travel? And of course it would be linear because of this state of the art design. what, what about an inch or something? What’s, what’s, what’s the linear travel of a CA18 off the top of your head?
Cody Hiebert: The, the carbon 18, that is underhung. So linear is 36 millimeters.
Andrew Hutchison: Oh, wow.
Cody Hiebert: Okay, that’s,
01:20:00
Cody Hiebert: that’s X max. Mechanical is 40. and we drive, we drive them routinely to about 38, 38 to 39. There’s a couple of models that I can get up to like 39 and a half.
Andrew Hutchison: Okay.
Cody Hiebert: And they maintain perfect thermal linearity as well as inductance linearity, like, well, inductance linearity, thermal, all the linearities Flux, linearity, all of that stuff like magnetic force, all that stuff is really nice and clean. There’s a couple of models that can get that high like 39 and a half millimeters or so like right, right at the edge of mechanical hard bottom. So and that’s one way. So you know two way. It’s maximum stroke capacity is around 3 inches on the carbon. On the Cassini Tradition line that is 20 ah, 5 millimeters one way. So 50 millimeters two way. And we can kind of. It’s an overhung motor so they are a little bit stroke limited but we can scoot past it a little bit by you know, a few millimeters here and there depending on the load that’s being put on it by the content. So that’s where a nice robust amp really helps out. It allows things to float. Nice.
I want to get your thoughts on a couple of things in the subwoofer world
Andrew Hutchison: I want to get your thoughts on a couple of a couple of things in the subwoofer world that I find amusing and slightly concerning. And I just wonder whether I want to get you, I want to get your take Ascendo, if that’s how you pronounce the. Their name, maybe makes some enormous woofer like the cone is I forget the diameter. Oh yeah, I think there’s like an 80. Yeah. So what’s your thoughts on an 80 inch subwoofer? Is that a, is that a, is that a. I mean, I mean clearly it doesn’t have to move as far to produce, to move a certain amount of air. But I would have thought there was a sweet spot in diameter. What and what do you think that is?
Cody Hiebert: My first concern on really large diameter drivers is the non linearity of air. When you get to a certain point the air itself becomes nonlinear. When you’re using a cone to move it and when you’re producing multiple frequencies both in the audible range and in the infrasonic range, how do you control that non linearity and that that becomes concerning because there’s, there’s a certain amount of decibels per liter that you can extract. So when you’re, when you’re dealing with this massive cone area, the weight of the cone itself would require so much stiffness of the suspension that the power applied would have to be out of this world in order to get it to articulate properly. But then you’re, then you’re looking at overcoming so many physical challenges just in the realm of physics like you know, bone sag and
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean we could categorize it as a marketing exercise. Surely I would have thought. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, that’s the way it strikes me.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah.
Andrew Hutchison: I mean, and it’s a great marketing exercise.
Cody Hiebert: But I haven’t heard anybody say it sounds terrible either.
Andrew Hutchison: I’ve heard it at a distance. At a hi fi show, it sounded pretty terrible at a distance through about 18.
Cody Hiebert: Oh, really?
Andrew Hutchison: Ah, because it was, you know, was going through the whole building.
Cody Hiebert: Well, there we go.
Andrew Hutchison: Look. But you’re right, but you’re right. At that show, no one said. Said that it sounded bad. it was lots, of people mentioned it. people were annoyed that it was. Of course, yeah, was leaking into the. Well, the whole hotel, you know. But, I mean, everywhere I was too. I think I was a floor or two floors higher or something and it was. Yeah, but, no, that’s, that’s, that’s a decent comment. Yeah. No one’s, no one said, oh, and it sounded terrible. You know that. That’s not what they’ve said. No. So, but I mean, I mean it is, it is a great marketing exercise because, you know.
Cody Hiebert: Well, it’s like my carbon series, like how many people are looking for that level of fidelity? There’s a few. I do sell them. I mean, I’ve got theaters that just have carbon subwoofers, like four 24C 24s and, and all that. But ultimately, ultimately where the carbon subwoofer came from was my desire to figure out how far can I go in engineering. A, the enclosure, B, the driver, C, the application of the amplifier via the DSP to make the ultimate. And so it’s kind of like my I don’t really care about anything the industry is doing statement like. And honestly, I mean, I’m pretty clear about that on my website. I really don’t care, but about,
01:25:00
Cody Hiebert: you know, the industry direction or, or anything like that. I’m here to build the best thing that I can possibly build. And it started with the carbon subwoofers. So I mean, as an engineering exercise, I think they all have merit. But like I said before, the only thing that I worry about with large diameters, that’s one of the big reasons why I haven’t built one, is the non linearity of air. Yeah, you could probably produce like, I don’t know, know 100 millimeters of stroke with a massive gigantic cone and everything else and that would be fantastic. But at a certain point, the fidelity aspect of it only makes it usable to a tenth of that.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah.
Cody Hiebert: So like, why, why go to that extreme when the practical application. I guess I’m. I called myself before hopelessly pragmatic. You know, I always think about the practical use, you know, like, can this thing be used? Even though the Carbon series is a really extreme subwoofer. Yeah, it’s also, can I use it? Like, is it too big? Is it, is it too much of one aspect of audio versus another? And I tend to lead my entire business that way. You know, I don’t get myself stuck in decision paralysis. I’m pretty good about that. But it’s still, you know, I force myself to ask myself those questions and then answer them and with a very, with a very real, real answer. Like, no. Like, this is, this is silly. And that’s like one of the reasons I don’t, I don’t offer a, ported subwoofer. That’s one of the first questions I get asked. Why don’t you do port sub. Ported. It’s like, because a ported subwoofer is like three times the size and I can do just as well with the same amount of money in a seal. And you don’t have, you know, like, port phase issues. You don’t have any port noise issues. I mean, if you really want the wind, we can do that. You know, like, I can. Yeah, well, you know, some people like the wind. The tactile, you know, from the window.
Andrew Hutchison: As in the, trouser flapping base. yeah, it’s.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah, exactly.
Andrew Hutchison: Yeah, exactly.
Cody Hiebert: So, so there’s that pragmatism that follows, you know, my design inquiries and, and from, like an engineering exercise. Yeah, you know, big diameters, they can be, but, and they can be awesome. But where is, where’s the practical application when, you know, the rubber hits the road? Like, where is that?
Andrew Hutchison: Well, there’s no practical application unless you’ve got some enormous space. And then really, it’s just.
High end high performance subwoofers often equate to price only
Yeah, I feel like it’s something you, you clearly just rip off a, a panel off the wall somewhere and go, look at this, look at this, look at this giant subwoofer I’ve got. I mean, to your friend, to your friends, there’s, I typed in, high end, high performance subwoofers into the Internet and I got, I got all sorts of things from really not that expensive to $5,000 or something. I, then went to Reddit, which is where all good information is obtained. And I, there’s some interesting.
Cody Hiebert: Is that sarcastic?
Andrew Hutchison: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s two lines of thought at Reddit. There’s the one where four thousand dollar subwoofers is better than anything you’re ever going to get out of one subwoofer of any kind. yeah, I would have thought that was crap times four. More than more than anything else. But anyhow. But then there’s the, there’s the other thought that there’s, there’s that. Macintosh apparently have got some. So a few name brands have thrown their hat into the ring for a Mac have got a, I think a $65,000 and I guess that’s us.
Cody Hiebert: Yeah.
Andrew Hutchison: got any thoughts on that? You know, we’re not sponsored by Macintosh. You can say whatever you want. I mean I’m sure it, I’m sure it’s A, got a blue light in it and B a large badge. But Do you know anything about meters? Yeah, yeah, it probably does have a VU meter on, who knows. But I don’t really care. I didn’t really think McIntosh were much of a speaker maker, but I guess it’s The, the point I’m attempting to make poorly is that high end high performance so often is equated to price and price only. And there’s, there’s really two kinds of products. There’s those very effective affordable products that maybe you do use four of them to you know, distribute room modes or, or deal with room modes to some so much. Distribute them. You’re not going to distribute them. You’re going to distribute the modes from each woofer, balance them off, whatever the, And then the other way is you have one serious enormous 65,000 dollar subwoofer. Now your woofers are not 65,000 dollars I believe.
01:30:00
Andrew Hutchison: I have no idea how much they are. I think I did see a price some years ago. I don’t think you’ve got pricing on the website anymore. What is a C18CA18 normally selling for in Canada or the US ballpark? No exact pricing because obviously the spec varies to some degree I guess. or you sell them in various ways depending whether they’re installed by an installer, which I guess is critical to some degree. and then you offer some support as well with tuning over the phone so to speak. just, just pin an approximate price though on it Cody, just so people, listeners know that it is relatively affordable.
Cody Hiebert: The Carbon series, starts at $15,000 Canadian and goes up from there depending on how it’s configured and that size, range goes from 12 inch all the way up to 24.
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Cody Harbottle: Thanks for taking the time to talk to us
okay, well I think we’ve, like I mentioned earlier, we’ve covered a hell of a lot of ground and I think we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, I think we’ve touched on every sort of aspect of the business and, and the product. So so Cody, thank you so much for taking your time to give us some insight into your your dreams and imagination of, of, of wanting to build quite possibly the, the best, lowest compromise, no compromise subwoofer on the planet. So thank you for that. the, the product again is Harbottle. And and I, I urge you listeners to visit the website and there’s lots of reading on there and there is that as I mentioned earlier, that great link to the Neville Teal video video also has a couple of other Australian loudspeaker designers in that video. It’s a video I’ve not seen before, so I don’t know how you found that, but good on you. and it’s, and I can tell you right now, it’s the best video out there with Neville in it. It’s there’s others but there’s only short ones and it’s an AES one and it’s yeah, it’s, oh, it’s AES hosted or at least that’s who put it up. Anyhow, AES Australia I think. thanks again. I’ll let you get back to your freezing. Well, thank you, I really appreciate the time and I’m sure listeners do as well.
Cody Hiebert: And I just hope I wasn’t too boring, man. Well, it’s, it’s, you know, Canadians.
Andrew Hutchison: I don’t think Canadians are boring.
Cody Hiebert: What?
Andrew Hutchison: Is that what you say?
Cody Hiebert: Well, we’re kind of, I don’t know, I kind of feel a little dorky about stuff sometimes.
Andrew Hutchison: Ah, well, look, it’s, it’s unavoidable. You’re, you’re an engineering type, you know, it’s.
Cody Hiebert: There we go. There we go. Engineer nerd.
Andrew Hutchison: Well, it’s, it’s, it’s, it is part of the. It’s part of the package, unfortunately. I mean, you know, you can’t be as smart as you are and, and be, be a, comedian, perhaps at the same. Same time. And, Or maybe you can. Although, actually, I can’t think of an example of anyone who’s actually capable of doing what you’re doing from an engineering point of view, who also can do. Do, you know, impressions of, you know, various personalities or whatever. So don’t worry about it. I’ve. I’ve found it very interesting and that’s the main thing, because I, I do this podcast for my own personal benefit. No one else. I don’t care about anyone else. thanks again. I feel like we’re going to speak again at some point, but I think we’ve covered all that we can cover at the moment on the website. We will have links to Katie’s website, of course. Thanks again, everybody. Everybody. We, will, we’ll be back, in a week or two with another episode. Thanks again. Talk to you later.
01:33:54